Si noi am iubit...

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Si noi am iubit...

Postby Magister » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:40 am

Din una in alta, am gasit acest articol:
care descrie "tehnic" dar si cu amanunte delicioase inceputul procesului de "a se indragosti"... S-ar putea sa se aplice in mod special persoanelor din Spectru, care descriu totul despicand firul in patru, si apoi rumega, inca mai mult decat persoanelor "normale" care se pare ca trec repede peste aceasta faza si mai departe...

La mine asta a inceput pe la 13-14 ani, din pacate prea "delicat", un fel de "urmarire la distanta" a fetelor pe care consideram ca motive substantiale sa le apreciez (cam "stalking" dar nu in sensul criminal din USA). Nu stiam cum sa abordez practic "agatatul".
Parintii au zis NU si in mintea mea NU a ramas. Fetele respective au plecat la burse, joburi si si-au gasiti soti prin lumea foarte larga... Si eu am ramas singurel, tot nu am reusit sa depasesc aceasta faza...
Asa incat chiar citind un articol ca mai sus m-a apucat din nou... un dor, ca e cuvantul romanesc care se potriveste cel mai bine.
n.1974, recent Dx - sindrom Asperger
"Nu imi propun sa scriu o oda decaderii, ci sa ma laud cu placerea cocosului cantator dimineata, cocotat peste cuibar, chiar numai pentru a-mi trezi vecinii" Henry David Thoreau - Walden
Posts: 236
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Location: Bucuresti

Postby jumbo » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:09 am

Educatia nostra cea de toate zilele

de Adrian Stanciu – Cotidianul – 18.10.2006 – Suplimentul Educatie & joburi


Suntem bolnavi de o cronica neincredere in noi si in propriile noastre puteri. Asta e dublata de o nevoie bolnavicioasa de a fi primii sau, mai precis, de a nu fi ultimii. Uitati-va doar la batalia ridicola de orgolii intre Romania si Bulgaria. Cum am ajuns sa avem atat de multi dintre noi insecuritati personale atat de mari ? In primul rand pentru ca am crescut in familii in care nu ni s-au spus suficiente vorbe de incurajare. Pentru ca noua ni se pare ca daca ne incurajam copiii si-o iau in cap, devin nesupusi, si naraviti, si increzuti. Asa ca ceea ce fac nu e niciodata suficient de bine. Apoi e manifestarea afectiunii, sau, mai precis, lipsa ei. Cati dintre noi isi amintesc ca parintii sa ne fi spus “te iubesc” ? Asa, cu gura plina. Stiu ca ati simtit-o, ca nu se declara, stiu toate astea, dar totusi cati ? Apoi consideram ca nu e bine ca ei, copiii, sa creada ca tot ce zboara se mananca, lumea asta e dura, trebuie sa te descurci si sa ai ambitie, sa-i bati pe ceilalti ca sa nu ramai prost. Cu orice mijloace.

Apoi a fost scoala. Aceeasi scoala mutilanta care se umfla si azi in pene cu realizari complet neimportante in timp ce formeaza pe banda rulanta caractere demne de Orwell. Aceeasi scoala care ne punea pe noi, tunsi scurt, imbracati in uniforme ca de puscarie, sa stam, la 6 ani, cu mainile la spate, suprem semn al obedientei si neputintei, le cere azi copiilor nostri sa nu vorbeasca in timpul orelor. In scoala noastra, orice e viu, individual, normal sau aparte e descurajat si respins.

Am vorbit cu multi parinti care deplang, ca si mine, starea invatamantului romanesc. Spre deosebire de mine insa, cei mai multi dintre ei deplang decaderea autoritatii !! Pentru ca ei o considera buna. Vor sa reintroduca uniforma. Poate si mainile la spate, nu ? Ma simt prins intr-o capcana fara iesire, penduland intre Scylla si Caribda, intre un invatamant lamentabil si pericolul unei reforme si mai lamentabile. Pentru ca am o fata in varsta de 5 ani si mi se apropie sorocul de a-i cauta o scoala.

Asa ca am de gand sa fac un experiment. Am sa-mi rasfat fata dincolo de orice inchipuire a celor mai multi dintre oamenii cu care stau de vorba. Ii spun zilnic ca o iubesc, tare de tot, de macar zece ori. Tot zilnic ii spun ca e cea mai frumoasa si cea mai desteapta fata din lume. Ii spun ca are voie orice si ca poate orice, atata vreme cat respecta dreptul celorlalti de a face si ei la randul lor ce vor. Si am inceput sa-i caut o scoala in care profesorii sa continue sa o invete asta. Nu matematica, nu fizica, nu chimie sau geografie. Nici unul dintre lucrurile astea nu-i va face viata mai buna. Ci libertatea, curajul, demnitatea, cooperarea, toleranta, tandretea, ascultarea celorlalti, independenta, responsabilitatea individuala, civismul, inovatia, integritatea... Daca ramane loc si de chimie, fie. Dar numai daca ramane loc.
Nascut: Ianuarie 1998.
Diagnostic: note autiste, hiperkinezie.
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Location: Bucuresti

Postby Armina » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:23 pm

I remember spending most of third grade at my desk. While I don't
recall exactly what I learned, I do have memories of being captivated by the
motes of dust that floated around me, visible in the sunlight.
Researchers would say that I wasn't making enough connections-a mistake that
many teachers today, armed with knowledge of brain research, are not
willing to make.
One such teacher is Janet Triner, who keeps her third-grade classroom
at Hoover-Wood Elementary in Batavia energized to make learning
engaging. During a geography lesson, students are out of their seats and
singing a catchy rhyming song to help them memorize the position of the
continents. Standing in front of a world map, they speculate about what
parts of their body match each continent: left hand North America; nose to
Europe; right hand on Africa.
A peek into the minds of third-graders is this month's slice of Chicago
Parent's five-part series on brain development. Each part tackles
recent research in cognitive development for a different age group, coupled
with firsthand accounts of teachers who are putting this new knowledge
to work in their classrooms.
Triner says she uses brain research principles to guide all her
teaching practices. "Information is sent to the brain through the senses. The
more pathways you engage, the better the chance that it will be
retained. In this exercise, we are activating our vision by looking at the
map, hearing the names of the continents in song, singing it with our
voice and engaging in motor activity, all at the same time."
Third grade is more than just a step on the grade-school ladder-it is a
shift in the educational system. And it is important that what is
learned in that grade sticks in a student's mind.
Children in third grade have new skills at their disposal. "For a long
time, cognitive scientists have seen significant changes occur in
students when they hit third grade," says Barbara J. Leys, director of the
University Training Programs for the Academy for Urban School Leadership
and adjunct professor of educational psychology at National-Louis
University. "They are able to think more abstractly, take on the point of
view of another person a little bit easier and are also ready to tackle
more concrete operations."
Because of this, teachers and administrators often up the ante. Math,
science and social studies become more complex, and instead of focusing
on learning to read, students are expected to read to learn in all of
these areas.
"By third grade, around 70 percent of the kids will know how to read
for comprehension, and to do so well, but the 30 percent that don't are
oftentimes in trouble for the rest of their school career," says Pat
Wolfe, a former teacher who now is an educational consultant in Napa,
Calif., and author of the book Brain Matters: Translating Research into
Classroom Practice.
Combine that with the need to learn cursive handwriting, manage
long-term projects and tackle increased homework, and it is easy to see how
for many third-graders, the change can seem cataclysmic.
Brain power, peer preference
Triner helps students deal with these challenges by teaching them how
their brains work. Along with information on what is good brain food,
the importance of sleep and how to "trick" the brain into filing
information, she shows her students pictures of the brain mapped with veins and
explains that it uses glucose and oxygen at 10 times the rate of other
Students talk about ways they are feeding oxygen to their
brains-walking laps on the playground before recess, power walking through the
school when it is cold and practicing deep breathing exercises.
"I love teaching this to the children because then they have power,"
says Triner. "They can't just say that 'I'm not smart,' because that
won't fly here . they know what they can do to make their brains work
Laurie Musielak, whose son Matthew is in Triner's class, says such
lessons have changed the way he thinks. "The lessons of healthy eating and
the importance of good foods to the body will stick with Matt because
she [Triner] is so enthusiastic and passionate," Musielak says. "I
guarantee he will never look at a snack with partially hydrogenated oil the
same way again."
Triner says it's all part of the job. "I think that in the past many
teachers would instinctively do things that were brain-friendly because
when they did it, it worked," she says. "Now we have information that
validates that process and offers a scientific reason why."
Experts say that third grade is the year when children begin to
intensely compare themselves with their friends, as peer pressure begins to
take root. "They become acutely aware of who is in what group," says Ed
Dulaney, project director at the Collaborative for Academic, Social and
Emotional Learning at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Their
awareness level on every angle becomes more acute, and even though we do
everything to prevent it, in third-grade kids understand cliques."
Leys says this offers perfect opportunities for teachers to take
advantage of the third-grader's desire for a group dynamic in a positive way.
"Kids work better together at this age, but they also need to be taught
the group process," she says.
Dulaney says good teachers will make sure that groups change all the
time. "One time, you may break groups up by ability, another time in a
way that targets a specific topic, another day it may be random, or split
up by gender," he says. "This helps the kids understand that in the
classroom the playing field is going to be leveled almost every day. It
eliminates some of the speculation over who is the smartest and who
Still room to grow
Unfortunately, by third grade, gifted programs, as well as programs for
children in special education, are often set and are rarely reviewed
for change during the remainder of a child's elementary school career.
"There is a feeling in the academic arena that by third grade, before
fourth grade, when most national testing begins, that we have a pretty
good picture of how a child learns and that the picture is set," says
Eric Jensen, author of the book Teaching With the Brain in Mind, and
president of the Jensen Learning Corp. in San Diego. "But this does not
match what we know about the brain.
"We need to quit labeling kids early on, because we are learning that
things can constantly change," says Jensen. "Most research shows that
throughout childhood, the brain is more susceptible to change than we
ever thought possible."
Experts say that no matter where students fall in the ability spectrum,
educators need to take advantage of the developmental advances of
third-graders to teach them in the way they are going to learn best. They
advise teachers to do away with long, dry lectures and eliminate sterile
learning environments in favor of making students partners in learning.
Sue Sokolinski, a third-grade teacher at Alice Gustafson Elementary in
Batavia, agrees. "In our classroom we use the 'think, pair and share'
method many times every day," she says. "Today I had all of the kids on
the rug, and we were reading about measurement and the metric system,"
says Sokolinski. "Several times I paused and said things like, 'Stop
and think about a time when you saw your mom or dad measure something.
Now pair up and share your ideas about that with a partner.' "
This technique reinforces concepts in the brain and makes them
personal, which research indicates is also likely to help students retain
Sokolinski says taking that approach works. "A lot of teachers are
hesitant to allow real group involvement because they are afraid that it
will be difficult to bring the kids back to focus," she says. "But when
you give them a chance to talk about what they are thinking, you
literally direct the learning process-and they are going to better understand,
retain and generalize that information."
Don't sweat the test
The last challenge for third-graders is testing. While they may not be
taking standardized tests this year, they are preparing for them.
"There is a real pressure to get them ready," says Leys. "But giving kids
information the year before to get ready for tests that they will be
given next year is not teaching to the way they need to learn.'"
Still, many teachers are doing it, says Leys, largely pushed by state
standards and district expectations. "At 4, we are pushing our kids to
read for kindergarten. In first and second [grade] we are preparing them
for third grade, and at third grade for what is to come. Aren't we ever
teaching them for what they need to know now?" she asks.
One of Leys' own mentors phrased the "prepare for testing early"
mentality this way: "She said, 'Just because I know they will have a broken
arm in the future, and will have to deal with it, doesn't mean that I
break it for them now,' " says Leys.

Wolfe wholeheartedly agrees. "Because of the emphasis on high test
scores in most districts, teachers are under enormous pressure to push .
namely from a community that wants to see those high scores," she says.
"But the best schools realize that you can get good test scores from
creating real understanding. If you focus on getting students to
understand what they learn, rather than simply drilling test material, the
scores will take care of themselves."

The importance of social and emotional learning comes into play in the

Students were treating each other terribly at Benjamin Franklin Middle
School in Ridgewood, N.J., and administrators knew that something had
to change.
"They put a social and emotional learning program in place to deal with
issues of teasing and put-downs," says Maurice Elias, professor of
psychology at Rutgers University in New Jersey and vice chair of the
leadership team of the Collaborative for Academic, Social and Emotional
Learning at the University of Illinois at Chicago. What happened next
surprised everyone.
"It had an unintended consequence," says Elias, who reports that the
entire climate of the school took a positive turn. "Students began coming
to school early because they wanted to spend time with the staff. The
message is that if kids feel that there are people at school that listen
and care about them, they really want to be there."
And while they are there, research says, they learn better. Studies
have found that emphasizing positive social behavior in the classroom is
linked to better intellectual outcomes and performance on standardized
achievement tests. And the 2003 nationwide review "Safe and Sound: An
Educational Leaders' Guide to Evidence-Based Social and Emotional
Learning Programs,' led by Mary Utne O'Brien, discovered that 83 percent of
schools that have implemented high-quality social and emotional learning
programs have since made academic gains.
Still, most social and emotional programs are focused less on test
scores and more on building the life skills, such as self-awareness,
self-regulation of emotion, self-monitoring, empathy and perspective, and
social skills in handling relationships.
Emotions impact learning
While more schools are recognizing the importance of social and
emotional learning, Ed Dulaney, project director for the Collaborative for
Academic, Social and Emotional Learning and former principal of Hinsdale
Middle School, says too many still lag.
It is the collaborative's mission to get more schools on board. Without
proper training and attention, emotions can hinder learning in the
classroom because a child's focus is elsewhere.
"Often, kids' brains are not ready to learn, because emotionally they
are distracted. . They are not processing or integrating [information]
in a way that allows them to retain it," says Elias.
This makes sense to experts such as Barbara J. Leys, director of the
University Training Programs for the Academy for Urban School Leadership
and adjunct professor of educational psychology at National-Louis
University. "Especially if children are under chronic stress, their systems
get triggered quickly, and they can't concentrate as easily and have
difficulty remembering things-once those stress chemicals are running
through their bodies, it is hard to stop those reactions," she says. "But
if we can help them to be aware of that and plan for possible solutions
ahead of time, we can counteract it."
Those who think children shouldn't have a lot to be stressed out about
may need to rethink their position. "There are pretty compelling
evidences that between 9 and 15 million kids suffer from some kind of
significant stress factor," says Eric Jensen, author of the book Teaching With
the Brain in Mind and president of the Jensen Learning Corp. in San
Diego. "It can cause some kids to become hyper-vigilant, which looks like
attention-deficit disorder, or go the other way and become hypoactive
and disconnect from the school experience."
Jensen says most schools have yet to factor in the effect of stress on
how kids learn. "Prolonged stress, or distress, inhibits the creation
of new brain cells. Anything we can do to help make the classroom a less
stressful place to learn is going to enhance brain function."
One school's success
Students at Cossitt Avenue School in LaGrange may not be immune to the
impact of stress Jensen describes, but they are given the advantage of
being part of a school committed to social and emotional learning.
"I truly believe the academic connection is there," says Principal Mary
Tavegia. "If they are comfortable in school, they are ready to learn."
Cossitt Avenue School, with 620 kids in kindergarten through sixth
grade, was the first of School District 102's five schools to adopt a
social and emotional learning program. "We realized that our schools were
not as warm and caring as they could be," says Tavegia, noting the reason
for the pilot program's implementation. Ten years later, Cossitt's
social emotional program is still in place and has yielded improvements
across the board, especially among boys ages 11 and 12. It has been
adopted by the three other elementary schools and the junior high school in
the district.
Tavegia believes Cossitt's success has had a lot to do with the
intensive staff development that is part of the program. "As adults, we set
the tone for our schools, as well as the climate, so first we had to come
to an understanding of child development and of social and emotional
development," she says.
"We operate our classrooms using a class meeting process, so that
students learn how to communicate with one another and learn social
intelligence, how to make eye contact, accept another's opinions, take charge
and communicate," says Tavegia. The students themselves are given
ownership on how some subjects are learned: If they are required to read a
book, the group may decide together to report about the text through
painting, rather than writing.
Relationships are also a focus-both between school and student and
students and their peers. "Building a child's sense of belonging to their
school is key to a child's academic achievement," says Tavegia. "If they
feel bonded with the school and those in it, they are more likely to
achieve and stay in school."
At a school where students come from very different backgrounds,
including affluent neighborhoods, a residential children's home and a
domestic crisis center, teamwork is heavily emphasized. Cossitt achieves a
sense of community through a variety of team-building exercises, including
a cross-age buddy program that pairs older children with younger
students to complete curricular work that benefits both groups.
"The little kids aren't afraid of the big kids and big kids have grown
kinder because of it. They have a responsibility," Tavegia says.
And although the school is in a district that has always shown high
academic achievement, Cossitt discourages comparison and competition
between students.
Visitors to the school won't come across bulletin boards broadcasting
the school's top-performing students. "We stress performance,
achievement and standards of quality work, but we are not about posting scores.
We took down star charts that listed who got the perfect spelling test
or the highest test score." Gone also are tangible rewards for
schoolwork and competitions such as spelling bees.
What may surprise people is that Cossitt's social and emotional program
does not take up additional class time. "It is not like, 'Now it is
2:15 p.m.
and time to sit and do our social and emotional
learning,' " says Tavegia. "It is who we are and what we do every day.
It is embedded into our school curriculum."
Literature and social studies lessons can be sprinkled with discussions
about the motivations of the character in a book or a group in history.
"We might use it to examine a problem and talk about how they think a
person involved felt in order to encourage them to develop perspective
and a sense of empathy . or ask what they might have done in the same
situation," says Tavegia.
Experts say social and emotional learning becomes part of a school's
culture and can be introduced with any subject. And overall, Elias says
schools like Cossitt likely strike a different tone than many from the
moment the students arrive.
"The whole mood begins when the kids come in the door," he says. "Kids
come with all kinds of different moods, but when they are greeted
warmly and caringly by name and by an adult . as opposed to being expected
to immediately get down to business, it makes a difference."
Bumps in the road
While schools that support the social and emotional learning concept
may sound idyllic, children's emotions and behaviors can be messy. "We
need to recognize that every student needs some sense of hope about being
in school, even if they struggle in a particular area," Elias says.
He tells the story of a program in Israel, Until the Last Child, which
takes children who are having the most difficulty in class, either
academically or behaviorally, and assesses their multiple intelligences to
uncover specific strengths.
"When they find a kid's strength they find an opportunity in the school
day to exercise that strength," says Elias. "When they don't behave
well during the day, they lose the opportunity to engage in that strength.
After all, think about it, what is a detention really? For many, it can
be a reward or a relief. But taking away something that a child is
invested in is a different story."
After one such assessment, an aggressive boy was trained to serve as a
greeter for adults who visited the school. "He became the best
greeter," says Elias. "After that, when he would have trouble with aggression,
he would be told, 'We want you to be able to greet, need you to, but
can't let you if you fight with other students.' The whole relationship
between the boy and the school was turned from adversarial to helpful."
Too often, educators lock other children out by labeling a few as the
"best" in a certain academic area. "The reality is that we don't have
enough heaps for everyone to be on top," says Elias. "Kids get the idea
without being told that they are not good at something."
Perhaps worse, so do his or her peers. "If that child is always on the
bottom of the pile, both that child and all of his friends know that he
is the kid that doesn't get it," says Leys. "But if we require all of
them to do things in different ways, each child might be a star in some
Still, teachers interested in boosting the social and emotional
learning of their students might have to go beyond science and math to find
where a child's true gifts lie. "There are many pathways to life success,
and all kids need to have a sense of value," says Elias. "That means
that if you are not good at math and reading, it doesn't mean you are
worthless . it may just mean that you haven't found that thing that you
are really good at yet."
Parents' help
The number of schools focusing on the importance of social and
emotional learning is growing, but that may not make a difference to parents if
their own kids' schools aren't among them.
"Seek out your child's guidance counselor or psychologist first," says
Elias. "It can be very difficult for parents to try and correct a
teacher's behavior, and I don't always blame the teacher for being defensive
to it-they are professionals. Nevertheless, if your child is not
getting what they need, you need someone more objective to help you."
Even if a child's school is not on the social and emotional learning
bandwagon, school guidance counselors or psychologists should be.
"After you have addressed it with them, wait and see what happens .
parents need to be patiently impatient and expect that they will pay
attention. If nothing is happening, the next step is the principal's
office," Elias says.
In the end, experts say administrators, teachers and parents need to
work together to make sure learning is not just something that impacts
what kids think, but what they feel and how they interact with others.

"We need food but don't eat constantly-and that is the same for
emotional intelligence,' says Elias. "If we give recognition and appreciation,
it is digested and then the next day they may need some more-but they
don't need a constant supply."
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Location: USA

Postby Armina » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:51 pm

Mi-a placut articolul pe care l-ai citat mai sus pentru ca exprima o realitate pe care o uitam prea des ca parinti .Eu recunosc ca avind privilegiul sa fiu parinte al unui copil "tipic" nu am stiut sa apreciez acest lucru ci dimpotriva am crezut ca imi fac datoria de parinte cerindu-i cit mai multe performante academice.A trebuit sa apara 'extraterestrul' de Dan ca sa inteleg ca greul dar si farmecul meseriei de parinte este de a-ti privi copilul nu ca pe o proiectie a viselor si asteptarilor tale ci ca pe o lume de posibilitati.
Si eu visez la o scoala in care profesorii sa fie interesati de binele emotional al copilului meu si nu de peformantele lui academice.Am postat articolul de mai sus(desi cam lung,imi cer scuze)tocmai pentru ca era o opinie altfel despre ceea ce ar trebui sa insemne scoala.Lucrurile nu se intimpla in realitate nici aici ca in articolul respectiv,sunt doar niste proiecte,dar este bine ca sunt oameni care isi pun intrebari de genul copiii sunt de vina ca nu se mai potrivesc in sistemul scolar sau scoala este accea care nu se mai potriveste acestei generatii de 'hiperactivi,visual learners'si ale caror nevoi emotionale sunt altele decit ale generatiilor precedente.
Pina cind scolile se vor schimba ramine in sarcina noastra de a ne schimba mentalitatile vizavi de scoala.De pilda ar trebui sa vorbim mai des despre cum ne -am pregatit copii pentru a intra intr-o forma de invatamint nu academic (cit vorbeste,cite forme geometrice stie etc.)ci mai ales social .
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Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:54 pm
Location: USA

Postby jumbo » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:31 pm


Sunt foarte de acord cu ceea ce ai scris. Si articolul citat de tine este bun. Poate ai timp candva sa il rezumi in limba romana pentru a fi citit de cat mai multi. Chiar daca deturnam subtopicul lansat de Magister. Defapt eu l-am deturnat in incercarea de a nu mai lansa un alt topic.

Sunt multe de spus despre scoala si scoli. Sistemele de invatamant din multe tari, fac cu greu fata schimbarilor rapide de mediu. Au ramas in urma si in privinta copiilor “tipici”. Cu atipicii, problema este si mai in urma. Si este foarte probabil ca ea sa nu se rezolve prea curand. Iar in Romania sa gasesti o gradinita / scoala cu adevarat potrivita pentru copilul tau atipic este chiar un sport mai greu decat jocul la casino. De multe ori, de mult prea multe ori, depinzi de cate un om (educatoare / invatator, etc ) si nu de un sistem, asa cum ar fi cazul. Insa, la capitolul sisteme functionale, avem de recuperat in mult mai multe domenii.

In alta ordine de idei, am intalnit si pareri de parinti care operau, fara sa isi faca prea multe griji, cu un dublu standard. Pe de o parte si-ar dori ca pruncul lor sa fie intr-o grupa / clasa cu copii mai buni (de la care sa aiba ce sa invete ) DAR nu ar dori ca pruncul sa fie “plasat” intr-o grupa cu copii mai putin abili (pe motiv ca l-ar “trage” in jos).
Ceea ce ne arata ca intelegerea pe care o cerem altora este mult mai mica decat intelegerea pe care suntem dispusi sa o oferim.

In incheiere, fara prea mare legatura cu cele discutate, ceva legat de comunicare:

“Fotografia este modul meu de a comunica cu cei din jur. Ma face sa ma deplasez in locuri in care n-as fi ajuns, ma face sa fiu curios de lucruri care altfel nu m-ar fi interesat, ma face sa caut, sa descopar, sa invat, sa sondez, sa vanez. Cu ajutorul fotografiei, curiozitatea mea are un scop, o finalitate palpabila. Incep sa observ lucrurile, nu numai sa le vad”

(Alin Neamtu, “Insomniacul si drumurile spre lumina” din revista Photo magazine nr. 18 / octombrie 2006)
Nascut: Ianuarie 1998.
Diagnostic: note autiste, hiperkinezie.
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:19 pm
Location: Bucuresti

Re: Si noi am iubit...

Postby dora » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:26 am

Magister wrote: Fetele respective au plecat la burse, joburi si si-au gasiti soti prin lumea foarte larga... Si eu am ramas singurel, tot nu am reusit sa depasesc aceasta faza...
Asa incat chiar citind un articol ca mai sus m-a apucat din nou... un dor, ca e cuvantul romanesc care se potriveste cel mai bine. ... ed&search=
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Postby BurnedBrain » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:29 am

Poveste complicata cu iubirea asta... De pe la 17 ani m-a apucat si pe mine nebunia de a-mi face o prietena, de a gasi "o persoana de sex feminin de varsta apropiata" ( huh :twisted: ) cu care sa impart si bunele si relele. Oricum nu consider experienta mea ca fiind cea mai relevanta insa unii cititori din spectru ar putea-o considera interesanta:

(o iau cu 1, 2, 3....)

1) daca nu cauti, nu gasesti! 5 ani de zile (la 22 de ani mi-am cunoscut actuala sotie) mi s-a spus ca pierd degeaba timpul alergand dupa femei, ca nicio femeie nu imi va rezolva problemele existentiale si nu ma va ajuta sa termin liceul si apoi facultatea, sa imi gasesc un servici sau sa imi fac o cariera. Am intalnit inclusiv opinii gen "nu cauta, te gasesc ele!" sau "cine cauta prea intens, ala nu gaseste!". Prostii in forma pura - cel putin in cazul meu particular. Cand am cunoscut-o pe sotia mea eram un student sarac, fomist (la propriu!), deprimat, cu un chef nebun de sarit pe geam, cu un an pierdut la facultate si cu o gramada de restante. Chiar incepand din acel an am reluat facultatea "in forta", am inceput sa lucrez ca freelancer pentru un american - nu au venit toate brusc, insa au inceput sa vina - in mai putin de un an castigam suficienti bani incat sa accepte parintii ei sa ne mutam impreuna si sa ne intretinem singuri amandoi, mai apoi am terminat facultatea (greu! da' cate calorifere nu a lustruit nevasta-mea la cate examene am mai dat!), am devenit "corporate slave" pe un salariu mult mai mare decat media pe economie si viata merge inainte! Si da, daca nu o cunosteam pe "ea" as fi renuntat probabil la facultate, as fi trecut prin cateva sejururi la aer curat la asezaminte de boli nervoase, as fi primit un diagnostic de schizofrenie care m-ar fi condamnat la o viata fara nimic!

2) in cei 5 ani fatidici am cunoscut (verbul "a cunoaste" in sensul de a discuta si a afla despre ce e vorba cu persoana respectiva) zeci de fete si femei. Ca om care a trait "in afara societatii", izolat de apartenenta la Spectru, foarte multe atitudini si moduri de gandire n-au facut decat sa imi creeze adevarate socuri, depresii si ganduri negre.

Nu ai cum sa intelegi rational de ce anumite fete se duc in anume discoteci care sunt frecventate de studentii de la Academia de Politie in permisii, special pentru a fi agatate de acestia. De asemenea nu ai cum sa intelegi rational de ce o femeie iti da iluzia ca te-a ales tocmai pe tine intr-un context tulbure legat de o proaspata despartire de un prieten cu care a impartit absolut tot 3-4 ani si a mai ales inca 1 sau 2 baieti in acelasi timp - probabil sa isi faca echipa de fotbal din care sa aleaga un "inlocuitor" pe criterii materiale si posibil sexuale, alegandu-l in final tot pe fostul iubit....

3) ca persoana din Spectru esti expus la "capcana atitudinii prietenoase". Dupa ce ani zile nu ai avut parte decat de ignorare si de respingere orice atitudine prietenoasa este o raza de soare; instant cazi in capcana! Nu ai cum sa intelegi rational ca o fata care a fost prietenoasa cu tine si te-a tratat corect nu a vrut decat fix asta si nu mai mult de atat... Am acumulat dezamagiri si din aceasta directie, rumegand saptamani intregi asupra subiectului "ce nu a mers" si "de fapt ce nu i-a placut la mine", "ce as putea schimba?". Din pacate diagnosticul de AS era departe atunci....

4) am trecut si prin capcana "limbajului smecheresc" al mesajelor incomplete sau cu dublu sens. Dupa o intalnire cu o fata - respectiva mi-a zis doar ca "timpul va decide, mai vorbim" si eu ma miram de ce nu imi mai raspunde la telefon. Probabil mi-ar fi fost util un "dictionar", sau macar o ghidare din partea unei persoane adulte responsabile. Din pacate de la 19 ani am fost exilat in apartamentul bunicii (Dumnezeu sa o ierte!) si lasat singurel sa ma dau cu capu' de toti peretii. Si se mirau parintii ca am luat-o razna, iau note mici la facultate, picam examene si ca am slabit 10kg!

Ar mai fi, rezum cand imi mai amintesc cate ceva!
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Postby dora » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:51 am

BB, e foarte interesant ce spui!
Copiii nostri vor deveni adolescenti, sunt lucruri la care nu ne-am fi gandit!

Ce te-ar fi ajutat atunci?Un tata prieten rabdator?
Un psiholog bun?
Un prieten mai mare -mentor de viata reala?

2) in cei 5 ani fatidici am cunoscut (verbul "a cunoaste" in sensul de a discuta si a afla despre ce e vorba cu persoana respectiva) zeci de fete si femei. Ca om care a trait "in afara societatii", izolat de apartenenta la Spectru, foarte multe atitudini si moduri de gandire n-au facut decat sa imi creeze adevarate socuri, depresii si ganduri negre.

Eu cred ca aceasta curiozitate te-a salvat!

Fie ea binecuvantata!
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Postby BurnedBrain » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:53 am

M-ar fi ajutat un ghidaj din partea unei persoane adulte responsabile cu care sa fi format o relatie de incredere totala. Din pacate nici comunicarea mea cu parintii nu a fost vreodata stralucita (iar cu taica-meu nici nu a existat); in plus eu am pornit in viata doar cu ideile preconcepute ale diverselor femei care au avut la un moment dat grija de mine - ma refer la maica-mea, la bunicile mele sau la diversele matusi!

Practic pana la o anumita varsta eu nu pot sa spun ca "am gandit cu mintea mea", mai degraba am mers pe ce stiam eu (din sursele mentionate mai sus) a fi adevarul universal, ca "fetele din ziua de azi se uita doar la bani" si ca rolul nevestei in casa e doar sa faca de mancare, sa spele rufe (neaparat cu mainile!) si sa dea cu matura (ii fac un adevarat favor ca ii cumpar aspirator) :lol: A, si neaparat femeia trebuie sa se marite virgina :lol: Acum la noi in casa avem pe cineva care vine la 2 saptamani la curatenie iar aragazul poate sta nefolosit chiar si o luna - insa inflexibilitatea asta mentala m-a urmarit ani de zile.
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Postby dora » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:21 am

Cartile, filmele te-au ajutat in vreun fel?

Inflexibilitatea aia mentala poate a fost cumva erodata din interior, putin cate putin, de ce-ai citit, de ce-ai vazut?

La un bebe te-ai gandit?
Aspergerii sunt speriati de ideea de a deveni tata?
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Postby vali » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:28 pm

Este adevarat ca intr-o relatie se foloseste f. mult limba "smechereasca", poate pentru a nu exprima inca in mod direct unele sentimente, sau pentru a provoca suspansul, aceste jocuri intre NT sunt acceptate si corect interpretate pana la consolidarea unei relatii mai solide si nu produc mari framantari intre NT.
O persoana cu AS se exprima mai direct, poate sa fie foarte impresionata de cineva de la prima intalnire, lipseste predictia, a masurilor de siguranta si mai ales a experientei datorita cercului restrans de prieteni (poate chiar deloc), doar rude apropiate (de obicei de gen feminin, alta generatie) etc.
O femeie NT poate fi placut impresionata de modul direct de abordare, de unele aprecieri la adresa sa la viteza mare (care se pot schimba de la o zi la alta, de la o luna la alta, depinde de interes...).
Redau mai jos fragmente din scrisorile scrise de un AS (cat % sinceritate, D-zeu stie !) , pe atunci nu stiam nimic de S. Asperger. (in atentia mamelor cu copii cu AS si autism inalt functional):

Prima scrisoare:
".........Am ramas placut impresionat de tine ca persoana. Iti declar de la inceput ca mi-a placut foarte mult de tine, de felul tau cald si bun de a fi. In ziua de astazi rareori ai parte sa vezi si sa apreciezi un om cu suflet bun si delicat, asa cum ai tu. Nu vreau sa te flatez in mod gratuit sau de complezenta, iti spun cu toata sinceritatea ca astea sunt gandurile si sintamintele mele, impresiile dupa ce ne-am intalnit acuma, a doua oara deja.
Oricum, eu sunt un om mai timid, mai interiorizat si imi afisez mai greu sentimentele in afara si deasemenea sunt mai greu impresionabil de cineva sau ceva de la prima vedere. Oricum, in acest caz, tin sa te asigur ca a fost altfel.
Sunt un om mai singuratic si insasi viata m-a facut asa, deoarece de la 14 ani taica-meu s-a despartit de maica-mea.........
Caut si eu ca oricine pe cineva de nadejde cu care sa incep o viata in doi, in armonie, dragoste si intelegere si daca ai vrea tu sa fi aceea, ti-as fi recunoscator......."

Alta scrisoare:
" Iti marturisesc sincer ca imi place f. mult de tine pentru ca esti om bun, ai o fire calda si intelegatoare. Esti exact tipul de femeie care imi lipseste mie, un om care sa ma inteleaga asa cum sunt eu, cu defectele mele inerente oricarui om, dar si cu unele calitati de care poate ca te-ai lamurit in parte. Eu sunt convins ca ne vom intelege bine, ne va ajuta D-zeu in acest sens si imi permit cu sfiala sa sper ca vei fi sotia mea cea buna si iubitoare, de care am atata nevoie. Eu sunt un om mai singuratic, mai timid si inchis in sine, dar cu tine reusesc sa ma simt mult mai in largul meu si deasemenea reusesc sa ma detasez de gandurile si retinerile de care dau dovada adesea in viata de toate zilele.
Azi mi-am cumparat o carte interesanta despre microprocesoare folosite in T.V. si revista"Chip", care trateaza problema de soft si hard in domeniul calculatoarelor, cu ultimele noutati in domeniu. E bine ca mi-au marit si mie salariul cu cca 42% dar s-a scumpit trenul si celelalte, asa ca totul se compenseaza ...."

Ultima scrisoare:
" ......te iubesc f. mult si sper sa ne unim destinele cat mai curand, in toamna aceasta.
......s-au scumpit biletele cu 15% intr-adevar. Am avut noroc ca a venit controlorul de stat pe tren exact cu o statie inainte de aceea pentru care imi luasem eu bilet (stii tu, obiceiul meu de a-mi lua bilet numai pana la jumatate din distanta pana la destinatie). Este destul de riscant."

Zis si facut, peste putin timp ne-am casatorit si chiar am crezut ca relatia va dura "vesnic", asa cum si-a dorit el (orice om are dreptul la o a doua sansa), eu am fost putin impinsa de mama si matusa lui sa fac pasul, deoarece nu aveam acordul parintilor mei, deoarece el a mai fost casatorit (lucru de neacceptat pentru parintii mei, dovada ne-am casatorit fara acordul lor). Daca as fi tinut cont mai mult de acea " scumpire de 15% la bilete" poate situatia era cu totul alta acum...

Sper sa nu supar pe nimeni, locul este rezervat celor din Spectru, dar consider ca si noi considerati NT (poate nu chiar 100%) putem cadea victime unor AS si Doamne cat mai suferim dupa aceea ( mai ales daca mai apar si copii cu AS)...
Bogdan, august 2002, TPD, a facut ABA la "Cristi's Outreach Foundation" .
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Postby dora » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:45 pm


iubiri si trenuri si scumpiri...

Ion Minulescu
Romanţă negativă

N-a fost nimic din ce-a putut să fie,
Şi ce-a putut să fie s-a sfârşit...
N-a fost decât o scurtă nebunie
Ce-a-nsângerat o lamă, lucioasă, de cuţit!...

N-am fost decât doi călători cu trenul,
Ce ne-am urcat în tren fără tichete
Şi fără nici un alt bagaj decât refrenul
Semnalului de-alarmă din perete!...

Dar n-am putut călători-mpreună...
Şi fiecare-am coborât în câte-o gară,
Ca două veveriţe-nspăimântate de furtună -
Furtuna primei noastre nopţi de primăvară!

Şi-atâta tot!... Din ce-a putut să fie,
N-a fost decât un searbăd început
De simplu "fapt divers", ce nu se ştie
În care timp şi-n care loc s-a petrecut!...
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Postby vali » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:57 pm

Multumesc, Dora? Se potriveste de minune!
Bogdan, august 2002, TPD, a facut ABA la "Cristi's Outreach Foundation" .
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Postby BurnedBrain » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:49 pm

dora wrote:Cartile, filmele te-au ajutat in vreun fel?

Pe la 18-19 ani mi-am luat câteva cărţi din seria "limbajul trupului" şi "schimbă-ţi viaţa". Din nefericire m-au ajutat numai să recunosc fără putinţă de tăgadă gesturile clasice de respingere şi de dezinteres. La momentul respectiv a fost cam deprimant oricum :|

dora wrote:Inflexibilitatea aia mentala poate a fost cumva erodata din interior, putin cate putin, de ce-ai citit, de ce-ai vazut?

A fost erodată în clipa în care am început să îmi trăiesc propria viaţă: să câştig banii mei - sume sensibil mai mari decât cele cu care eram obişnuit până atunci, să îmi înlocuiesc singur becurile şi clanţele prin casă etc!

dora wrote:La un bebe te-ai gandit? Aspergerii sunt speriati de ideea de a deveni tata?

În cazul meu particular - eu mi-am conştientizat limitările - nu ştiu cât de bine aş primi venirea pe lume a unui copil. La o anumită vârstă copiii se fac mai mult inconştient, ne aruncăm cu capul înainte, apare copilul şi asta e situaţia, îl creştem! Părinţii mei m-au avut în anul următor de la căsătorie, maică-mea şi-a susţinut lucrarea de diplomă la facultate cu sarcina în 7 luni. Alte vremuri însă! La capitolul "having fun" deja i-am sugerat soţiei mele să facem copil, eu îi dau pensie alimentară şi îl creşte cu un bărbat mai responsabil.... dacă găseşte :lol: Momentan creştem un motan, e mai simplu de îngrijit şi de stăpânit.
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Postby BurnedBrain » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:36 pm

vali, există o zicală care spune ceva de genul: "o femeie îndrăgostită poate să nu îi vadă niciun defect bărbatului ei în schimb una ne-îndrăgostită poate să nu îi vadă nicio calitate". E pur şi simplu noroc sau ghinion, dacă nu avea AS putea să fie frate cu sticla, prieten cu vecinele de cartier sau să aibă un temperament coleric, inclusiv cu accese de violenţă. La fel şi din punctul de vedere al bărbatului femeile pot fi (în sensul negativ) în multe feluri :lol:
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